UPDATE (25/03/25)
Alex Blanksby, the Vic Maths Notes guy, has posted a thorough and well-written and (too) even-handed summary of the CAS debacle.
UPDATE (26/03/25)
As noted by Simon, the list of survey questions is different, depending upon whether you indicate you are a teacher, student or whatever: non-(teachers and students) get to respond to almost nothing, and are launched straight to Q21. Additionally, the survey is submitted without warning for teachers (clicking “Next” after Q15) and students (clicking “Next” after Q20).
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Well, more or less. VCAA is kind of sort of asking for teachers’ opinions on the insane UDF CAS arms race.
VCAA has launched a short (and incredibly clunky) survey regarding CAS,* and in particular the possibility (i.e. necessity) of setting CAS to “restricted mode” for the 2027 VCE exams.** Teachers, and anyones, have until 2 April to complete the survey. I expect every single person who reads this blog and appreciates this blog to complete the survey.
There are about a hundred snarky things one could write about the speed and the manner and the extent of VCAA’s meandering along the road to Damascus. But, at least they’re now doing something in some manner. So, I’ll (mostly) leave it be.
VCAA’s letter to school principals and the substantive survey questions are below. Get to work.
*) The survey didn’t work with Chrome on my Mac. With Firefox, hitting “Next” after Q15 submitted the survey without any warning, and which could not then be amended.
**) I have no idea what “restricted mode” is and I couldn’t care less. The current madness is entirely VCAA’s doing and it is entirely their responsibility to fix it. If that fix entails turning CAS machines into bricks then all the better. What should be evident, even to someone idiotic enough and ideologically captured enough to desire CAS for school teaching, is that the current policy of permitting unrestricted CAS use on exams is absolutely insane.
Why is this survey limited to math teachers? Others that have an interest in math should be able to do it. After y12, students no longer use CAS. At university it is not used. Where the students are going should determine what is needed not the opinion of teachers that have never left school or had to use math in their work. Those who have taught math post secondary should be deciding. They are the ones that have to fill the holes in the students learning. About 20 years ago the parliament Education & Training Committee undertook an inquiry into falling standards in math & science. I doubt that those from the VCAA even know the report exists. Letting students use a CAS calculator has not improved students knowledge of math. As a retired professional engineer who has worked with gifted year 12 students for a very long time, I have seen the lowering standards in math since the introduction of CAS. We now have many university students using alternate pathways into university. Such pathways have no interest in CAS. We need math teaching to be directed from above, they know what they require for students need to know, not what teachers are doing.
What makes you think the survey is limited to mathematics teachers?
The Survey gives you different questions if you say you’re a student, teacher, academic, or others. Kind of fun to see how they frame the questions.
Preparing students for university is not the only driving force in VCE subjects – so I disagree that those who have taught post secondary maths should be the ones deciding…. but they should be a major voice. All courses fulfil many roles. Eg not all undergrad study should be designed as postgrad prep. People exit at different stages.
I also disagree about CAS not being used post secondary. There is a significant amount of Mathematica/Maple/Sage (and others) in applied and pure maths and in Engineering there’s Matlab/Octave that have CAS built-in. The question is more about when is it appropriate to learn and use such tools – and how it affects the rest of the learning. Same question can be asked about 4-function/scientific calculators in primary/middle school and power tools in wood work.
I do agree about falling standards – but that starts before CAS is added to the mix.
I also agree that using a CAS in VCE does not help students learn and probably hurts.
Maybe do it more like universities – where there are assignments that teach/test CAS (or spreadsheets/stats tools for data, etc) and then exam is tech free… but the problem is that schools are competing for exam rankings and so there is incentive for schools to skip those types of assignments and focus on exam prep. And VCAA trying to enforce things leads to messes and Marty’s SAC of Shit posts…
Or maybe give up on CAS in high school. IB and AP use graphing calculators only. HSC just uses scientific…
Thanks, Simon.
Your first paragraph is fascinating. I will check. Your second paragraph is ridiculous.
The reason to have academic mathematicians leading the school curriculum and senior assessment is not because school, for some students, leads to university mathematics, but because mathematicians understand mathematics to an extent and to a depth that teachers, even strong teachers, do not.
That may sound arrogant but it is true. I don’t know how often I have to keep yelling “category error” but I’ll keep yelling it until people get it. To think you can have a sane senior mathematics curriculum or assessment system without solid mathematicians at the helm is madness. It is generous of you to offer “major voice” but it is not remotely enough.
I’ll consider your other paragraphs later.
Thanks Marty,
I’m not sure. As a counterexample, many of the “new math” curriculum reforms were lead by academic mathematicians (I don’t have a deep knowledge here, so not sure the proportion of leadership and drive from within and without academia) – and although the maths was good, the pedagogy and sequencing for learning was not.
Successful researchers are not a representative sample of the student experience. They can be mislead by their experience of learning. And knowing the content deeply does not mean you know how to teach it effectively.
So, yes, a constructing a curriculum needs strong academic voices. But also experience with how students learn at all of the ages the curriculum covers. Choosing the *right* mathematicians, teachers, and education researchers is trickier. Education has a history of being faddish – but seems to be moving back into a more sane direction. But I’m sure those I disagree with think they are right too.
Re having “solid” mathematicians as a “major voice” vs “at the helm”. I’m not sure that is significantly different when kicking around ideas in a comment section
Simon, I don’t know what to say. You really don’t get it. You’ve made this kind of obtuse comment a number of times before, and it always genuinely surprises me.
I understand such ignorance from VCAA and their MAV lackeys. They are simply too weak and too mathematically illiterate to know how little they know. But what is your excuse? You are strong enough that you should know you are not nearly strong enough. Seemingly, you do not.
You keep writing these things, I will keep calling you out.
Thanks? In the same vein, you are highly educated and can be intimidatingly quick – I almost folded to your viewpoint. But you’ve missed my point. Just having a good academic mathematician lead the process is not enough. As I implied above, see André Lichnerowicz.
Anyway, I’ve said enough, the wall and my head are feeling acquainted again, and we are way off topic from your original post.
Your welcome?
Simon, I’m not sure Andrew was arguing against “CAS” in university but, if so, I’m cautiously on your side. For subjects such as linear algebra and (typically unsolvable) ODEs and PDEs, it is very natural to use computer software, and my guess is that most university mathematics departments do so, in a more or less intelligent manner. It is not my thing, even when done well, but I have not seen computer software in university mathematics departments employed in the fetishistic manner of VCE.
You are right, of course, that standards were falling long before CAS came in. Nonetheless, CAS is a very major reason why VCE mathematics students are not properly prepared for university mathematics, or for much of anything, and obviously so.
Your last two sentences are key. Nowhere else in the world has such a CAS fetish. There is simply no good reason for VCAA to continue with this perversion. But, once you’ve gone long enough down the road of perversity, it is difficult to turn back.
A generation of Victorian teachers has been indoctrinated into this insidious cult. A generation of Victorian teachers has no proper conception of what senior school mathematics can be and should be. How do you deprogram them?
Agree with most of that.
As for how we deprogram teachers (if necessary)? We just have a clear curriculum and good assessments. Just like students, teachers need to prepare for the system we’re in.
There is a larger issue about “deprogramming” teachers from an overly student-led & enquiry-first point of view. Things like AERO, researchED and the state government education departments are doing a good job at getting that moving. See e.g. NSW and VTLM 2.0 (Victoria). Now we just fix up the curriculum and make it less ambiguous and more rigorous. (Which ties into the fun comments above). I saw some good talks at researchED about the issues in the system level curriculum… and how to improve it
It’s enough to almost give you (or at least me) some hope!
How does one establish a clear curriculum and good assessments?
Let’s assume, all evidence to the contrary, that VCAA wants a properly solid curriculum that is properly and solidly assessed. How would VCAA implement that without riling up the thousands of members of the cult?
I’m sorry, I cannot see it. Absent the leadership of a very intelligent headkicker, a Nick Gibb, I cannot see any remotely adequate reform on the horizon.
I think most people at VCAA and MAV etc do want a good curriculum with solid assessments. As a rule of thumb, no one thinks they’re the bad guy. It’s just their view of “good” does not match yours or mine or maybe reality.
And this is the catch we’ve been arguing about. How do you ensure that curriculum reform matches our view of good? Have a experts – both content area (university level) and education – that work in a system and culture that respects the rigour of the subject and the evidence on good practice.
I think the culture in the anglophone education world is shifting for the better. See e.g. the massive changes in early literacy and the various state departmental advice on good practice and explicit teaching. Just not sure when/if it will reach the top of VCAA and ACARA – or how to help in that regard. A Nick Gibb helps with cultural change in things like ACARA – but someone like him could also kick in the wrong direction.
Simon, I have absolutely no idea what you’re arguing.
There is an objective reality. The objective reality is that VCAA and ACARA and MAV and AAMT and MERGA are out of their tiny little minds, and thus a generation and more of teachers has zero clue what solid mathematics is and, thus, what meaningful mathematics education is.
I do not care that VCAA and ACARA and MAV and AAMT and MERGA may be trying to do good. They are not doing good, so screw them.
You’re not wrong – in all three of your paragraphs. But I think my head found the brick wall again, so it’s time to stop.
Aside: I just finished a lesson on proof by induction and the binomial theorem – reasonably solid mathematics. It still bugs me that binomial theorem is not in year 10 or in maths methods. It’s barely implied in year 11 specialist.
Dear VCAA,
I was today shown this letter and wish to give you my thoughts directly. I have completed your survey and, as such, do not expect you to reply to this correspondence, but I nonetheless want to share my concerns:
1. This letter was sent to my principal. They are not a Mathematics teacher and do not have the time to respond to surveys, especially when they feel it would be better done by the people who are actually affected. Are my responses invalidated by the fact that it was not my principal who completed the survey?
2. I see no instructions in your letter mentioning (or even giving permission) to my principal to forward your letter to the Mathematics teachers in the school. See my question above.
3. Can you please clarify what, exactly, you mean by “restricted mode”. I have played around with the settings on my TI NSPire CX II CAS and cannot find this setting anywhere. I wanted to experiment with it at Year 11 classes so as to make my feedback to you more genuine, based on experience, but so far that has proven impossible. I know of “press-to-test” mode but since this largely disables all CAS features, I doubt this is what you are talking about.
4. Two weeks seems like an awfully short amount of time, especially at the very busy end of a term. It also seems that this is but one option you are considering before 2027. When will I get to hear of these alternatives? Hopefully in time to give meaningful feedback (or to tell my principal what to write).
5. In the past I have completed your surveys and there has been no follow-up and I have felt the exercise largely a waste of my time. If it were not for the state-wide teachers’ strike on Tuesday I may have left this off my to-do-list. Is there any evidence you can provide that our feedback is taken under serious consideration and not merely as a “well, we consulted, so…” exercise.
Truly etc.
Anyone have any thoughts before I send this email…?
I don’t have thoughts on the email, except noting that VCAA doesn’t expect principals to be the ones to do the survey. How else to quickly contact schools?
Whether or not completing the survey is a waste of time, you are under instructions from me to complete it. Your point 5 may be fine and proper for an email to VCAA but it is annoying me here.
Understood. Your instruction supersedes that of VCAA anyway.
It is this line that bothered me the most:
“We also welcome direct feedback from principals on this proposal.”
Schools should not have had to be “quickly contact[ed]”. Things came to a head soon after the November exams last year. The VCAA’s ‘consultation process’ should have occurred at least a month ago (if not start of February) and relevant stakeholders should not have to be rushing to submit within a fortnight (especially since many are teachers and have dozens of other things demanding their time-poor attention as we approach the end of the term).
If your point is how else to ‘efficiently’ contact schools, the usual channels would have been sufficient – the VCAA Bulletin and/or a special memo back in February. This would then also have included the general public (in theory), many of whom would be relevant ‘stakeholders’.
I’m happy this particular issue is finally out in the open (not that the VCAA had any real choice despite the implication in their letter), but I’m very unhappy that – to me – it all smells of the VCAA finally and begrudgingly pulling its head out of the sand and desperately scrambling to try and catch up – yet again -and deal with yet another big problem with the VCE that has been glaringly obvious and growing for many years.
I too will be responding to this consultation process. In the meantime, I think a quote from Leo Tolstoy is appropriate (implying one of the reasons a response from blog readers is so important):
“I know that most men – not only those considered clever, but even those who are very clever, and capable of understanding most difficult scientific, mathematical, or philosophic problems – can very seldom discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as to oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed, perhaps with much difficulty – conclusions of which they are proud, which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their lives.”
Leo Tolstoy, What Is Art? (1897)
I’m not so sure that the “considered clever” part is appropriate in some cases. Nevertheless …
John, I’m not really disagreeing, but you’re also sliding the question.
Of course VCAA should have done something much quicker. Certainly in November 2025 they should have gotten off their asses, and they did not. But this was a huge issue long before last November, and VCAA knew it was a huge issue. Their delay in acknowledging and responding to the problem, not to mention their idiocy in creating the problem in the first place, is unconscionable.
But we are where we are. I guess the Bulletin thing would have made sense but I don’t see that the principal route as well, or even only, is that bad. Yesterday I was contacted by four separate people about the survey, none being my principal.
I don’t think the manner of contact is a major concern. That the survey makes evident that VCAA doesn’t really give a stuff about what teachers, or members of the public think is the greater concern. Even that might not be too much concern.
What could possibly be the outcome of this process other than to kill the UDFs? I cannot see that even VCAA is so arrogant or so stupid as to maintain the status quo, and I don’t see the process so far as indicating they wish to.
For the TI nSPire CXII go into the “doc” menu and you want option 9 “Press to test”.
But don’t do it. Do Not Press To Test!
Because it’s not that easy to get out of that mode. If I remember correctly you need another CAS that’s not in Press-to-test mode, and a cord to join them; or you need the teacher software package; or you need to wipe the OS and reinstall.
Don’t say I didn’t warn you.
I’m getting a 403 Forbidden error. Is that what you meant by clunky?
Geez. That’s clunkier than I got. Try clearing your browser and/or try a different browser.
Maybe it is because everyone is submitting their answers at the same time…? (All 465 of us)
We can hope.
Switched off my vpn and it works now.
Worked fine for me at 3pm today on Edge. Maybe using the school network helped.
FWIW, I said yes, interested in the focus group in Term 2.
Hoping others did too…
Yes, did the same.
I also tried, as much as possible within the space allowed, to make the point that students / teachers using UDFs is a pretty natural consequence of allowing CAS in VCE exams – and so the solution isn’t to tinker with CAS settings just prior to exams, but rather to completely eliminate CAS.
Well said.
I said pretty much the same thing. VCAA opened the door.
Bizarre that all of the questions focus on whether you currently use UDFs in class, and not whether it’s a good idea to ban them, given that this is the policy change in question. Do you get this same set of questions if you don’t select “teacher” at the beginning?
I’m also struggling to imagine (and contain my rage towards) the teacher for whom UDFs are over 30% of what they teach!
Thanks, Will.
I think the point is that VCAA doesn’t give a flying fuck what teachers (or anybody else) thinks. VCAA know best and they will decide. They are simply gathering the information on what teachers do in order to make their own wise decisions.
The fact that VCAA only has this response after the hoi polloi get access to UDFs is fun. It was ok when private schools and tutoring companies provided access, but everyone having Lazy Math is apparently now not ok.
It’s also ‘amusing’ that the survey only talks about UDFs and doesn’t mention the various widgets and notebooks for answering questions that the TI affiliated grifters are happy to sell to students and staff.
Anyway, survey done!
Thanks AH, although I think your criticism is a little skewed.
I don’t think VCAA was (seemingly) blasé about UDFs because it was mostly private schools that were benefiting. I think VCAA simply went full ostrich as long as they could sustain it (and well, well after), because they simply could not admit that their ideological perversion had resulted in such a debacle.
That final sentence is quite telling. It makes a lot of sense, given the evidence, especially in GM. But once the Hungarian Algorithm question hit the popular press and mentioned UDFs there was not a great depth of sand left in which to bury their heads…
Yep, I think that’s all that has happened: they ran out of sand.
So basically, don’t assume malice when (wilful) ignorance will suffice
Yep, pretty much. Although Freud may reasonably question the distinction.
I started to fill out the survey, but it gave me the strong impression that I have to be a VCE teacher to submit.
One does not have to be a teacher (and you are). Just fill it out, tell VCAA that CAS is poison and UDFs are insane, and submit it.
Alex from Vic Maths Notes (and other places) has published a nice write up about the CAS (and UDFs) in Victoria, discussing pros and cons and comparing to other states. As always, very detailed and considered!
https://vmnalex.substack.com/p/its-time-to-talk-about-cas-calculator
Thanks, Simon. Yes, a very good write-up, although “CAS is an unmitigated disaster” is shorter and makes the same point.
Thanks, Simon and Marty.
Today’s I decided to retire as a teacher.
Goodbye and good luck.
You carried much, much more than your load.
Terry, I have never met you, but from your posts here I am sure you are highly regarded and valued by your students and colleagues. All the best.
Survey completed. The questions were odd, I agree with what others have said in regard to this. I used the comment sections to add my views on not using CAS.
I believe I might have been in the first wave of CAS Methods and Specialist students when I did VCE (I will have to check this), however their functionality was limited. I never used it at University and I find them frustrating as a teaching tool. I would not have an issue with them being removed altogether from the study design, but at the very least, to have them put on test mode would be a step in the right direction. How this would be mandated is another story. I don’t think supervisors would be able to recognise if UDFs were being used or not. Time will tell.
Thanks, B. If the only way to ensure non-nuclear CAS on exams is to forbid them then so be it. It would be insane to keep things as is.
Question for anyone who reads this: If you offered to be part of a focus group in Term 2, have you heard anything? I have not.
So you put your hand up for CAS or whatever and have heard nothing?
Yeah, one of the survey questions was if you wanted to be part of a “focus group” on the “proposed changes” in Term 2. So far, crickets.
Idiots.